The Wash Up

TONY JONES

Good evening and welcome to Q&A. I’m Tony Jones. Well, last week, all the experts were tipping a Labor win, but tonight Scott Morrison’s government is on the way to a majority. Well, here to answer your questions tonight: broadcaster and commentator Alan Jones; political journalist for The Australian, Alice Workman; former Defence Minister Christopher Pyne, who’s now stepped away from parliamentary politics; Shadow Minister for Finance Jim Chalmers, who was Labor’s election campaign spokesman; and business leader Ming Long. Please welcome our panel.

Thank you very much. Now, Q&A is live in eastern Australia on ABC TV, iview and NewsRadio. Later, we’ll be taking Skype and web questions from across the nation, but our first question comes from the audience – it’s Angus Mullins.

ANGUS MULLINS

Thank you. It was predicted that Brexit wouldn’t happen, that Donald Trump wouldn’t win the presidency, and that the Coalition wouldn’t win a third term. With the silent majority being touted as a reason behind recent conservative successes, why is it that progressive parties, such as Labor, are so out of touch with the majority of voters?

TONY JONES

I’ll start with Alan Jones.

ALAN JONES, BROADCASTER AND COMMENTATOR

Well, I think it’s a very good question. I mean, I thought it was always absurd that the party of the workers would go to an election campaign with their hand deeply in everybody’s pocket. I mean, it didn’t make sense that you could say a tax policy where you take $387 billion away, you’d alter negative gearing and jack up the price of rent, and reduce the price of houses, you’d 50% increase capital gains tax, you’d take money from millions of self-funded retirees and say that they were rorting the system, and that’s before you get…the cost of energy policy. And at the end of the day, they poked the bear of the silent majority, and the silent majority have spoken, and the result is diabolical for the Labor Party, because Scott Morrison has virtually won two elections on the one night. I mean, the vote in Queensland, three people in every four didn’t vote Labor, and in New South Wales...in Australia, two people in every three.

TONY JONES

Alan, you’re saying it’s impossible for Labor to return after three years?

ALAN JONES

I don’t think Labor have got any hope of winning the next election, because the marginal Coalition seats have now become very safe seats, and seats which had a margin of 0.06% have now got margins of 7% and 8%. And this is all because, to go back to the question… and, Jim, I know you were the architect of some of this, I could not believe that the Labor Party would sign what I called a national economic suicide note. And the people have voted accordingly, and workers, your own people, basically said, “I can’t support Labor.” You had the Labor Party saying to miners, “Vote for me.” And the miners are saying, “What, to get rid of my job?” So, they put their jobs ahead of the party, and the result is there for everyone to see.

TONY JONES

OK, Jim Chalmers, touted as the architect of policies that fail. I mean, if you listened to that kind of recipe for disaster that Alan Jones just set out, does that sound like your policy? Your party, I should say?

JIM CHALMERS, SHADOW MINISTER FOR FINANCE

Well, first of all, Angus, I mean, let’s not get carried away and declare the outcome of the next election, three years away, 48 hours after the last election. Alan, as usual, in his contribution, then, spoke a whole lot of rubbish about Labor’s policies. And unfortunately, that kind of rubbish, which has been repeated by Alan, repeatedly over the last...not just the last five weeks, but longer than that, if we’re honest about it, that found fertile ground in the community.

And so, what I wanted to say, and your question, Angus, gives me a good opportunity to do that, is I feel like we in the Labor Party, we did let down millions of people who needed us to win the election 48 hours ago. We... There are a lot of people who needed what we were proposing to do on child care, or pensioner dental, or in terms of hospitals and schools, and we didn’t get over the line. And I wanted to say to them, through you, Angus, that we’re very sorry about that. But our job now is not to engage in some year-long pity party, or drag our arses around. Our job now is to rebuild and renew and refresh. Because, unlike Alan, I don’t think the outcome of the election three years away was determined 48 hours ago.

TONY JONES

Is it your job, also, to get rid of the various policies which turned out to be electoral poison, if Alan Jones is right? And he certainly appears to be, if you look at the vote.

JIM CHALMERS

Well, obviously, the vote was disappointingly weak for us, heartbreakingly weak, particularly in my home state of Queensland – very disappointing. And I’m not going to pretend that away, I’m not going to try and sugar-coat that. We fell short of what we were hoping to do. And, obviously, in that context, you do need to listen and learn. Our policies will be a matter, obviously, for some consideration and conversation in the time ahead. I don’t think anybody expects us to determine our policies for the next election 48 hours after the last one, so we’ll take the time to listen and learn, rebuild, refresh and renew, and that’s what people expect of us.

TONY JONES

Just before I move on to the other panellists, how big a problem was it that the campaign was run and directed from Melbourne, that it had a Victorian focus and it was centred there, so far away from Queensland, where the disaster started?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, we ran our campaign from Parramatta in Western Sydney, and, obviously, no matter where you run it from, you need to make sure that there’s a diversity of voices. I think what we need to do tonight and generally is we need to resist the temptation to pretend that the election outcome was because of one thing. We always have this temptation to oversimplify. It’s never about one thing, and it wasn’t about one thing on Saturday. It was a combination of things. There was a scare campaign, as I said, in response to Alan that found fertile ground. I think it was dishonest, but it was also successful. We had...

ALAN JONES

They were your policies, Jim. I was only quoting your policies, that’s all I was doing.

JIM CHALMERS

Yep. We had a very sustained campaign, personal campaign, against our leader, Bill Shorten. We had Clive Palmer, who made what was effectively a $60 million donation to the Liberal Party by running wall-to-wall ads bashing the Labor Party...

TONY JONES

OK, we’re going to come to that.

JIM CHALMERS

So, there are lots of reasons.

TONY JONES

We’re going to come to that. The right in New South Wales... Obviously, the campaign headquarters was in Parramatta, but there was a Victorian centrepiece there. I mean, you had... What they’re saying is, the right, “They ran a Victorian campaign nationally, but Victoria isn’t North Queensland or Brisbane or Western Sydney.” So the recriminations have already begun, and they’re pointing at those who ran the campaign.

JIM CHALMERS

Yeah, look, I wouldn’t put it that way, Tony. But, obviously, when you look at Queensland, where we underperformed substantially, then we need to do something different there. We do need to give a greater emphasis to Queensland in our campaigning – that’s self-evident from the result.

TONY JONES

OK. We’ll come back to that.

ALAN JONES

Tony, could I just... Is Jim telling me that for the whole course of the campaign, he didn’t have any awareness that this was happening? I mean, it was a train wreck from day one. The voters were saying that, Labor voters. Are you telling me that you’re in touch with the electorate and you didn’t hear any of this, and it was all a big surprise on Saturday night?

JIM CHALMERS

Alan seems to have forgotten whose show it is, Tony, but I’m happy to answer it.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE, SOUTH AUSTRALIAN LIBERAL MP, 1993-2019

This is going to be great if you two keep attacking each other.

JIM CHALMERS

(LAUGHS) That’s right. You can put the feet up.

TONY JONES

It’ll have to be ,a quick answer because we do need to go to the other panellists – sorry about that.

JIM CHALMERS

Look, the result was never beyond doubt, and, you know, we thought that there was a prospect that we might get there, obviously, but we were nervous that things were difficult, particularly in Queensland.

TONY JONES

OK, Christopher Pyne.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Well, I think elections are decided on the economy, and what Labor said at the election was “We’re going to tax a lot more than the Liberal Party are going to do, or the Liberal and the National Party.” They couldn’t explain the impact of their economic policies on people. I think the election really took a very bad turn in the first week, when Bill Shorten couldn’t tell people what the impact of his 45% emissions reduction target would be on the economy, and dismissed the question. And, actually, in elections, the Australian public want to know what the policies are going to do to their hip pocket. Every election in Australia is decided on the economy, and Labor, by election day, couldn’t convince people that they knew what the impact of their policies were going to be, which were far-reaching. They were going to tax people a lot more – which they admitted – they had a big tax agenda. You can argue about the $387 billion, but by election day the Australian public knew Labor would tax them a lot more, and they knew they were going to spend a lot more.

And I think there were a few turning points in the election. One of them was the Labor Party just adopting the Coalition’s policy for first-homebuyers after our campaign launch without having done any work on it, so they sent a message to the Australian public that they were reckless around the economy and the budget. Now, I’m sure...

TONY JONES

Just on that score, not a lot of work was done by the government, to be fair. I mean, there was no economic modelling...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

We did the necessary work. We announced a policy. We knew how much it was gonna cost...

TONY JONES

There was no economic modelling on the policy...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Well, Labor had... The prime minister, the putative prime minister of Australia, couldn’t tell people what a 45% emissions reductions target would do to the economy. And Labor wanted to fight the election on climate change. And their signature policy, he couldn’t tell people what its economic effect it would be.

ALAN JONES

But he couldn’t tell you how long it’d take to charge an electric car.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

No, he couldn’t. That’s true.

TONY JONES

Alice Workman?

ALAN JONES

What?!

ALICE WORKMAN, THE AUSTRALIAN

Uh, Angus, great question. You can buy the paper tomorrow, ‘cause I’ve written a story covering this exact issue. I think one of the biggest problems with Labor’s campaign – and you can see the strategy between the two major parties – is that climate change means different things to people that live in inner cities than it does to people in Queensland. Labor saw the biggest swings in Sydney, Adelaide and Melbourne, all in the inner city, where, to people there, climate change might mean something more about renewables and about saving the Great Barrier Reef, whereas in Queensland it means jobs.

And the LNP in Queensland, Scott Morrison allowed them, unlike only a few... A few months ago, when Super Saturday happened and the LNP had the opportunity to pick up some seats in Queensland, Malcolm Turnbull wouldn’t let the LNP run the campaign that they wanted to run on the ground, which was about jobs. And so it was run on innovation and these other ideas, even though they knew in Queensland that people didn’t like what Bill Shorten was selling.

And so, what they did this time, Scott Morrison let all 151 seats run their own campaigns. So in Queensland, what they did was they came up with flyers where they copy-pasted Labor’s policy about transitioning jobs from coalmining into renewables and they handed it out to people. They did their own modelling and said, “What does this mean in individual seats?”

There are seats up in the Whitsundays – uh, ballots I mean – ballots up in the Whitsundays where, last election, 2016, so not that long ago, they were voting 20% for the LNP. This is in Capricornia. Labor could have easily picked up this seat, and a lot of the tracking polling said they would, but the LNP ran a campaign hard. You know, George Christensen was standing up in pubs saying, “We’ll green-light Adani,” in seats...in places where the unemployment rate is 36%, saying, “We’ll green-light Adani, we’ll give you jobs.”

And when I asked a Labor person why, in the Whitsundays, the only place in the country that’s ever elected someone from the Communist Party, is now voting 50% on marginal, so primary votes in marginal seats – you know, a seat that was only held on 0.8% – why aren’t they voting for the Labor Party, when you’re meant to be standing up for workers? And he said, “Well, what’s the defence that we’re running? We don’t have a position on Adani.” And the Greens ran an amazing campaign, hijacking... Bob Brown went up into Queensland and convinced everyone who doesn’t live in Queensland that there’s only one mine in this country and it’s Adani, when it’s not.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

But they did have a position on Adani – they had two positions.

ALICE WORKMAN

Well, and this was confusing.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Bill had a position in Melbourne on Adani and a position in North Queensland on Adani.

ALICE WORKMAN

And Labor’s candidate in Flynn had his hands tied. And he was asked many times... He lost friends over this campaign, because he couldn’t stand up in public say he was pro-Adani.

TONY JONES

Alice, we’re going to move on...

ALICE WORKMAN

Can I just say quickly... The CFMMEU was running with the LNP in Queensland, because 300,000 people across this country work in resources, and they believed that if the Labor Party was elected – whether it be true or not – that they would lose their jobs. And that explains a lot in Queensland and Tasmania, I think.

TONY JONES

Ming Long? And the question was – we’ll come back to it – why is it that progressive parties, such as the Labor Party, are out of touch with the majority of voters? Do you believe that’s the case?

MING LONG, BUSINESS LEADER

Look, I don’t think... I think it’s right what Christopher’s saying with respect to economics being a really big driver for Australian voters, because really, you know, as Alice has said, if you’re unemployed in Queensland, I can understand why you would not care about climate, because the last thing you’re thinking about is climate. You’re thinking about your own survival, your own...what’s going to happen to your own career, or your own survival.

I think it’s quite important for parties to ensure that they have a diversity of opinions in their ranks, so that they’re actually listening to the people in the community. I think a lot of the times, you can sit in a bubble, whether it’s in Sydney, or in all of the other capital cities – we tend to listen to each other, and we tend to listen to just people who agree with us, and there needs to be a lot more listening of people who, you know, we don’t agree with, and...to understand their position.

Unfortunately, though, I think... You know, I watch politics, and it is so toxic at times, and I can understand why people turn off, ‘cause really, you’re just... You know something? You’re just having a go at each other, and you’re not listening to the people who have real issues that politics needs to solve. So I can see why people turn off the major parties, they turn off listening to elections – people who didn’t even know who our prime minister was because they’ve been so appalled at what’s happened.

So, I do think it’s important that we recognise with the Labor Party, though, that, you know, regardless of how Bill Shorten was seen – and he was seen to be quite unpopular for a very long time – he had the discipline to hold the party together, and the one thing that I’ve been really annoyed at with politics is the revolving prime ministers that we have. I would not want the Liberal Coalition party to...to look at this election and think, “Hey, we can change leaders again and it’s OK – the electorate will vote us back in.”

TONY JONES

That’s pretty unlikely, Ming, but we’ll come back to that. Now, the next question...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

They’ll change the rules, as well.

TONY JONES

The next question now, via Skype. It’s from Paul Keighery in Northleigh, New South Wales. Thornleigh.

PAUL KEIGHERY

Jim Chalmers... Thanks, Tony. Jim Chalmers, the Labor Party was foolhardy to propose the removal of franking credit refunds from some retirees but not from others. It didn’t make sense. If Labor had won the election, my income would have been reduced by almost 20%, from $40,800 to $32,800 per year. Now, will Labor admit that it made a mistake in taxing retirees so hard? And will Labor apologise for this monumental blunder?

TONY JONES

Jim?

JIM CHALMERS

Yeah, thanks very much for that, Paul. Obviously, the view that we took to the election was that we couldn’t continue to have $6 billion or $8 billion out of the budget each year, on the basis that 96% of the population were subsidising a tax break which was enjoyed by 4% of the population.

TONY JONES

OK, now, we understand... We’ve had this debate a lot. The question we’ve just heard there is whether that will remain your policy, given the shellacking you’ve gotten from the over-65s?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, look, all of these policies, obviously, after an election loss, they’re up for review, they’re up for discussion, they’re up for further consideration.

ALICE WORKMAN

You can dump them when you become the next Labor leader, Jim.

JIM CHALMERS

They’re all up for consideration. And I resp...

TONY JONES

What do you personally think? I mean, you’re the Shadow Finance Minister. You’ve heard from Paul, wasn’t it? Yes. You’ve heard from Paul, but there are thousands of Pauls out there and many other women in the same situation who said, “We’re not earning that much money and you’re going to take money away from us in our retirement, which we planned for.” I mean, it’s as simple as that. I mean, was that a big blunder, as he asks?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, I don’t think it explains the election result on its own.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Big part of it, though. Big part of it.

JIM CHALMERS

Well, the same reason as I said before – it’s never one thing when you lose an election. And in fairness to Paul, that’s not the first time I’ve heard Paul’s argument. I’ve heard that, you know, engaging around the country.

ALAN JONES

But, Tony, the argument that these people haven’t paid taxes is nonsense. The tax has been paid by the company. In the 1998 Labor Party manifesto of Kim Beazley’s, he says this – “Labor will provide a cash refund for those shareholders who can’t make use of their imputation credits because they don’t pay income tax.” He said, “This will be a significant benefit for older Australians, especially self-funded retirees on lower incomes, and it’s fair.” Kim Beazley. Now, suddenly, you’re standing all of this on its head on the untruth that these people are getting a refund when they don’t pay tax. Now, everyone knows...

TONY JONES

Alan, I’m going to interrupt you, because Paul, who asked the question, wants to come back, and we’ll take a quick comment from him. Paul?

PAUL KEIGHERY

Yes. Well, Tony, Chris Bowen was warned about this during the election. He could have modified the policy, and I just don’t know why he didn’t. He could have made it fairer. He could have capped these...suggested that they be capped, and that would have made at least a little more sense. So it was just...it was...it was a train wreck. It was...it was the wrong thing. And it could have swung...it could have swung the whole election, in my opinion. But retirees like me were totally confused and couldn’t understand it at all. It was targeting one particular section of the community. It was not fair.

TONY JONES

OK. We’ve another question on this before I come to the other panellists. It’s from Andrew Fulton. Andrew.

ANDREW FULTON

Yes. Jim, Labor initially emphasised taxing the wealthy and giving to the poor, with hitting the ‘big end of town’ and franking credits. This was not a fair go for Australians, as your initial campaign slogans kept trying to tell us. It was badly scripted and typical socialist rhetoric from an age long past. How did you misjudge the mood and intelligence of the Australian people so badly?

JIM CHALMERS

Was it Andrew? Yeah. Well, thank you for the question, Andrew. And, you know, the motivation for the policies that we took to the election on Saturday was a recognition that we’ve got a heap of challenges in the budget and in the economy. In the budget, we’ve had debt which has doubled – public debt has doubled in the last six years. You don’t hear that enough. We’ve got a big problem with debt. We’ve got a big problem in funding hospitals and schools and child care and the nation’s priorities. And what we said in the election was, we were up-front with people and we said there are some tax concessions available to a sliver of the population that the country can’t afford anymore.

 And the alternative would have been what Tony Abbott did in 2013, which is to pretend everything was hunky-dory and then to pop up after the election and do all of these sorts of things that we hadn’t got a mandate for. Now, obviously, after an election result like what we copped on Saturday night, we have to reflect on that, obviously. And I’m not...again, like Angus’s question, I’m not going to pretend that we don’t need to give consideration to all of these policies. But they are based in budgetary reality and economic reality. And I know that...

TONY JONES

But were they... You heard the sense from the questioners. They’re saying, both of them, that it was political poison for the Labor Party. So, it’s...the obvious issue is, would you go back and drink that poison again?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, I keep saying in different ways that obviously we need to have a discussion about our policies. We’re not going to take...we’re not going to announce our policies 48 hours after an election, for an election three years down the track. But what I do wanted to say, Tony, ‘cause I think this is crucial, there’s an economic basis to what we were proposing to do. We do have a big problem in this country with the budget, with the economy. People on low and middle incomes don’t have the disposable income or the wages growth that they need to deal with the cost of living, and we had a proposal to deal with that. The Australian people did not support us at the election. That’s self-evident. And so we go back to the drawing board. We rebuild, we renew, we refresh.

TONY JONES

OK. Alright, now...

ALAN JONES

Now, Tony, the policy... Labor talked about fairness...

TONY JONES

Alan, I’m going to interrupt you there, because Christopher Pyne deserves a go. He’s been wanting to get in for a while.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I do deserve a go.

TONY JONES

Go ahead.

ALICE WORKMAN

How would you have fixed it, Christopher?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I have to say, I think, as a political professional of more than a quarter of a century, when Labor announced this policy about the retirees tax, that was when I first started to think that the Coalition could win the election.

TONY JONES

Let’s just get this right – they didn’t announce a tax.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Well, they announced the franking credits policy.

TONY JONES

They announced they were taking away... Exactly.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

And why I thought that was because it wasn’t just the over-65s who were bewildered, as the two questioners have indicated, but all their families as well. And these are a very well-connected group of people. Retirees can’t go out and get a new job. So they watch their dollars very closely. And when they saw that they were going to lose money, they were all on the internet – they’re very connected through their own newsletters and newspapers and magazines – they would have said to all of their children and grandchildren, “If I lose $2,000 a year or $20,000 a year, whatever it might be, that’s Christmas presents, that’s holidays, that’s meals out with my family.” That would have connected right through the community. And I think if there was one policy that cost Labor the election, it was definitely the retirees tax.

TONY JONES

OK. We’re going to move on. We’ve got a question related to a previous question. It’s from Alan Hamilton. Go on, Alan.

ALAN HAMILTON

My question is to Jim Chalmers. Under a Labor Party that you lead, will the term ‘big end of town’ be dead, buried and cremated?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Let’s hope so!

TONY JONES

Jim Chalmers?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, I won’t sign up to the first assumption in your question. But on the language that we use, whether you call it the big end of town, whether you call it people in the highest income tax bracket or whether you call it, you know, multinational corporations, the budget as it’s currently constructed under the Liberal Party relies on cuts to hospitals and schools, and goes easy on people who need money the least. And I think that’s an economic challenge. See, this economy is slowing. Unemployment is rising. Jobs are insecure. Wages are stagnant. These are our economic challenges. And no matter what happened in the election two days ago, those challenges remain, right? And so, we...

TONY JONES

Just a quick one -- no apologies for the use of the term ‘big end of town’? Which is right at the fundamental edge of that question.

JIM CHALMERS

No. No.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I think that was a mad thing.

ALAN JONES

Well, the big end of town is 3% of Australians...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Self-funded retirees.

ALAN JONES

3% of Australians is the big end of town, who pay 30% of all income tax. Now, on the previous question...

JIM CHALMERS

You’re talking about people who make more than $200,000 a year.

ALAN JONES

You keep talking about fairness, the Labor Party keeps talking about fairness, and on the dividend imputation, you have different kinds of taxes for the same shareholders. Some shareholders get the refund, and other shareholders don’t. And the ones who don’t are the poor people. How’s that fair? Jim, it doesn’t make sense, and the people are awake up to you.

TONY JONES

Alice Workman wanted to jump in there.

ALICE WORKMAN

Well, I think we should go back to Alan’s question, which was, under a Labor Party that Jim Chalmers led. Jim, are you ready to rule in or out whether you’ll run for the Labor leadership? I know you probably don’t want to do it on Q&A, but can we embargo it until tomorrow morning? I’m sure no-one... Everyone’s watching Game Of Thrones!

TONY JONES

All the journalists on this table are going to be asking the same question.

ALICE WORKMAN

Everyone’s watching Game Of Thrones. No-one will know.

TONY JONES

Of course I was going to ask you.

MING LONG

I won’t. Can I answer, though? (LAUGHS) Different way?

ALICE WORKMAN

No, Jim can answer.

TONY JONES

Just hold on, Ming.

ALICE WORKMAN

Are you gonna run for Labor leader?

TONY JONES

Are you going to stand up and put your hand up for the Labor leadership as a new generation – and a Queenslander, after all, when the great deficit that your party faced, the worst deficit, was in Queensland?

JIM CHALMERS

I’m considering it. I’m talking to my colleagues about it. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that a few of us take some time to work out what we want to do. Remember that we were hoping to be forming a cabinet this week. We weren’t complacent about that, but we were hoping to be cabinet ministers. I was hoping to front up tonight as the Minister for Finance. We had a heartbreaking defeat on Saturday, and we’ve got to deal with that. So I think it’s reasonable that I take some time to have a think about it, talk to my colleagues about it, and, uh...and see where it goes from there, but I...

TONY JONES

And you would be pitching as the next generation of Labor? Could be out of power for a long time, potentially, if Alan Jones is right about the two-election win. A younger leader getting his bearings over six years, potentially. Is that...? Would that be your pitch? And a Queenslander to boot?

JIM CHALMERS

I’d put it this way.

ALAN JONES

That’s good.

JIM CHALMERS

I want to play a substantial role in the rebuilding of our electoral fortunes, a rebuilding of our policies up to the next election. The exact nature of that substantial role I think is to be determined. I’ve got a mountain of respect for other colleagues, who are capable of leading our party. And so I want to take the time to consult properly with people.

TONY JONES

Ming Long, the only reason this is actually coming up, really, I suppose, is because Tanya Plibersek has pulled out of the race. Anthony Albanese is the last man standing, but obviously younger Labor MPs are considering leadership. What do you think about the fact that a woman has pulled out?

MING LONG

I mean, I would have loved for her to put up her hand. And I heard that she pulled out. She’s got family responsibilities, which is, obviously, very important to all of us, that you look after your family. You know, when I have a look at what happened on Saturday, do I feel like our country is ready for another female prime minister? I am not sure. And I’m just so sad to say that, that I can sit here and say we’re not ready as a country, because we should be ready as a country. It should not matter what your gender is or what your background is. But you have to face the reality of where we are. And I think...

TONY JONES

Where are we, by the way? I mean, where’s your evidence that we would never want to have a female leader...?

MING LONG

Not never. I mean, if we’re never...

TONY JONES

OK. Well, that we’re not ready...

MING LONG

...then we need to have a really hard look at ourselves.

TONY JONES

Where’s the evidence that the country’s not ready for it? We already had a female prime minister.

MING LONG

Yeah, we had a female prime minister, and I look at how she was treated, and it wasn’t great. And do I feel like the electorate is ready for another female leader of a country, without her gender being, you know, front and centre and in everybody’s minds? I don’t think it is, unfortunately. So I do think that we need to, as a country, think about what is important to us. Um, you know, women represent 51% of our population. And they deserve to have a chance to lead the country without gender being an issue.

TONY JONES

Let me throw that to Alice. And you can also reflect on who you think might end up as being the Labor leader. Obviously, that’s going to be very likely a contested battle, with a number of... Well, Chris Bowen, I obviously didn’t mention earlier.

ALICE WORKMAN

Oh, absolutely. It will be a fascinating thing. Because New South Wales is, obviously, also having to pick their leader at the moment. So, to see Anthony Albanese and potentially other members of the right put their hand up in New South Wales, that’d be pretty interesting. I think Victoria’s a bit on the nose, so no-one there will likely put their hand up. But just on what Ming was saying, the one positive thing I think we can say about the 46th parliament, if you’re not happy with the result, is we have a record number of female politicians who have been elected. There are over 80, which means that women make up more than a third, for the first time in Australian history.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Hear, hear.

ALICE WORKMAN

So it’s taken a long time, but that’s a pretty great number. I will also say that the Labor Party have...more than half their senators are women, which is an amazing achievement. And I think, you know, the parties have made some policy decisions behind the scenes that will have changed that shape. So I’m really excited about that and I can’t wait to see what happens. And the Coalition have some great new women coming along, who look like they could be in the outer ministry as well, which is very exciting. But in terms of the Labor leadership, there’s one kind of historical fact which I love to tell people, which is that someone that has served a full term as an opposition leader has never won an election. So, you know, the cynic in me probably says, well, maybe that’s a factor in people deciding not to put their hands up. They might wait and see how the Morrison government plays out over the next two years. And whoever the Labor Party picks, they might change their mind in two or three years’ time. I know that Ming probably won’t like that, but that’s the reality of politics at the moment. So it’s a wait and see.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

There’s no doubt at all that the fact that Bill Shorten was the Leader of the Opposition for almost six years did not help. And because people got to know Bill Shorten, they didn’t like it. Whether that’s fair or unfair, they didn’t like what they saw with Bill, and he found it impossible to change their perceptions. Because he had been there for so long that their view of him had become quite settled. And we saw in the election, he just could not shift that really unpopular number.

TONY JONES

Who do you think...

ALICE WORKMAN

And the one thing that people...

TONY JONES

Christopher, who do you think would be the toughest opponent now for Scott Morrison?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I don’t agree with Ming, by the way. I don’t think there’s any particular time that we’re ready or not ready for a woman prime minister. I think the Australian public would happily embrace a woman prime minster if either the Liberal Party or the Labor Party selected a woman as their prime minister. ‘Cause I think Julia Gillard has broken that glass ceiling, and I think that’s a great thing. Obviously, I wanted her to be defeated but I think it’s a great thing that we’ve had a woman PM.

MING LONG

I don’t think...

TONY JONES

Sorry, the question that I just asked you, though...

MING LONG

I don’t think you can assume that the glass ceiling is broken just because one person has made it through.

TONY JONES

But the question I just asked you, Christopher, was, who would be the toughest opponent now for Scott Morrison?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Well, it’s not my job to give the Labor Party advice about how to defeat my great party. It’s not my job to do that!

TONY JONES

Alright...

ALAN JONES

On the glass ceil...this glass ceiling, there was no glass ceiling for Carmen Lawrence, there was no glass ceiling for Gladys Berejiklian, or Annastacia Palaszczuk. I agree with Christopher. I mean, women... I think we’re inventing things here. If there’s a good woman... I’ve never heard anyone argue against someone because she was a woman, and there’s been very good women. But the argument here is... No, no. Where’s the glass ceiling for Berejiklian and Annastacia Palaszczuk?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Anna Bligh.

ALAN JONES

I mean, the issue here is who’s going to be the leader? And, Jim, I think many people...

TONY JONES

You may have forgotten the Ditch The Witch campaign against Julia Gillard, which I seem to remember you had some role in.

ALAN JONES

I... Well... Let me just correct the record. I have never uttered those words in my life. But if I just come back to you, Jim...

TONY JONES

You did apologise for what you said.

JIM CHALMERS

You said worse than that, actually. You said worse than that.

ALAN JONES

I’ll just come back to Jim. Many people would have thought... Many people would have thought that someone of your generation would be the likely candidate. But as you know, the rank and file get a vote in this leadership issue. And the rank and file in the Labor Party are very, very angry about the economic policies taken to the election. And if you are seen by the rank and file as one of the authors of those policies, it’s going to be a very, very inhibiting factor in terms of you getting support from the rank and file. So if Albanese hasn’t been part of that leadership that put those policies together, then I think he most probably has got a walk-up start.

TONY JONES

OK. Remember, if you hear any doubtful claims on Q&A, let us know on Twitter. Keep an eye on the RMIT ABC Fact Check and the Conversation website for the results. The next question comes from Kylie Harris.

KYLIE HARRIS

Clive Palmer is said to have spent around $60 million promoting his United Australia Party and his own Senate bid. Many are now saying this money was for nothing, with the United Australia Party only gaining 3.5% of the vote and not a single seat. But Clive Palmer himself is crediting his campaign for the Coalition’s success and Labor’s defeat. Do you think Clive Palmer bought the election for the Coalition and Scott Morrison?

TONY JONES

Alice Workman, we’ll start with you. By the way, Clive Palmer was a big bogeyman for The Australian, for a while there – they seem to have gone quiet on that.

ALICE WORKMAN

I couldn’t possibly comment on that – it’s above my pay grade. But I think the analysis is fundamentally correct, in terms of the disenchantment in Australian politics. We know, historically, that people are making their decisions when they walk into polling booths or switching over when a news story comes up, so they’re hearing less, and what they are hearing are attack ads like Clive Palmer that dispel things down into really simple three-word slogans, if you want to put it that way. What he managed to do was run attack ads that, you know, managed to attack the Coalition slightly but attack Labor more, and that really played out well in Queensland.

Of course, he didn’t get a Senate seat. I think Australians, thank God, are much more...too sensible to give him a Senate seat, so he won’t be returning to Canberra. But he perpetuated absolute lies about Labor’s policies. I wrote a long piece for The Weekend Australian two weeks ago about the death tax and the inheritance tax, where this myth was perpetuated that just...ad nauseam, people like Jim coming out and saying, “We’re absolutely not doing it.” And people fundamentally believed that if the Labor Party was elected that their inheritance would be taxed. That’s what they were saying when they were going in and out of polling booths on Saturday. So he ran a campaign like that and brought up those myths, and so he did help the Coalition more than he helped Labor.

TONY JONES

OK, Jim Chalmers, the question was, did he buy the election, effectively, for the Coalition?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, it was, effectively, a $60 million donation to the Liberal Party, because, as Alice rightly points out, it did nothing to help his own cause, but did a lot to damage Labor’s cause, and I think Scott Morrison has a debt to Clive Palmer now. And this is what we were warning about. It is problematic that you’ve got a prime minister who’s prepared to do a deal with someone like Clive Palmer, who is prepared to throw $60 million at those kind of lies that Alice talked about. On my polling booths on election day, people were coming up to me about the death tax, on and on. It’s never been part of our policy, it was never going to be a part of our policy, never will be part of our policy. But when you throw $60 million at a lie, it’s going to...it’s going to work. And so, that effective donation that he made to the Liberal Party is a big part of the story of what happened on Saturday.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I just think that there’s so much ‘sore losering’ going on. The truth is that I don’t hear anybody saying it’s outrageous that GetUp spent $10 million trying to unseat particular Coalition MPs with their army of people, volunteers, across Australia, or that the ACTU shouldn’t be allowed to spend money on election campaigns – they have spent millions and millions and millions of dollars – or that the Greens are not a risk to the Australian economy with their policies that Labor is happy to go into an alliance with, as they did in the 43rd Parliament. Now, it’s a free country. I don’t agree with what Clive Palmer said in a lot of his ads – a lot of it was complete and utter rubbish. But it’s a free country, he wanted to spend his money, he wanted to stop Bill Shorten being...

TONY JONES

Actually, it’s an expensive country, if it’s $60 million...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Hang on. You know, it’s OK to sneer at Clive Palmer, but he chose to spend his own...

TONY JONES

Who’s sneering at Clive Palmer? We’re simply saying that he spent $60 million...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Well, that’s his business.

TONY JONES

...when, simultaneously, he owes more than $70 million to the Australian taxpayer.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

It’s his business... It’s his business whether he spends $60 million. Right? And what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. And we don’t like what GetUp’s done, we don’t like what the ACTU does. They don’t campaign for us, they don’t donate to our campaigns. The ACTU is an open channel of funds to the Labor Party from their members. That’s the way things are. And for Labor to try and blame Clive Palmer...

TONY JONES

Is Clive Palmer now your ACTU?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

No, look, he’s... Clive Palmer can do what he likes with his money.

ALICE WORKMAN

Well, it should also be pointed out that Clive Parni...Cla Pa… Sorry.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Clive Palmer.

ALICE WORKMAN

Clive Palmer was a campaigner for the LNP. He ran their campaigns in Queensland. He only started his own party...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Many decades ago.

ALICE WORKMAN

But he only started his own party because he couldn’t get Liberal preselection.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Well, how outrageous. So this man who’s made all this money wants to spend it to stop Labor getting elected, and, somehow, this is the worst thing that ever happened.

TONY JONES

OK...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I’d like the same... I’d like the same, uh, standard to be applied to GetUp and the Greens and the ACTU.

TONY JONES

OK. It’s a reasonable point you’re making. Ming Long.

MING LONG

Um, I mean, I saw some of the ads. I was really annoyed at them. I know a lot of people who saw them on social media who came out and said, “Oh, my God, did you see those ads? They’re just completely outrageous.” Um, I don’t assume he’s stupid, that... You know, a lot of people are thinking that, “Oh, my God, he just blew $60 million for nothing.” He’s a businessman. He wants an investment for that $60 million return.

JIM CHALMERS

Exactly right.

MING LONG

And I think it’s important for the journalists and the media in our country to keep an eye on – is there a deal? Is he getting some sort of payback for that? I don’t know, I’m not... It’s above my pay grade too. I think it’s also important...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

It’s kind of an allegation, and it’s completely outrageous.

ALICE WORKMAN

If you want to know more about...

MING LONG

I just think it’s important for people to...

ALICE WORKMAN

Following the money is really important, and I think that Will Glasgow, who writes the Margin Call column for us, did a great interview on my podcast, The Scrutineers – available now – where he said, “If you follow the money of Clive Palmer’s campaign, it comes back to his coalmines.” He wants to get into parliament to have a crossbench position, so that he can influence the amount of tax that he pays and the amount of royalties that he gets. And that’s just the truth of it.

TONY JONES

OK...

ALICE WORKMAN

And it is his right to form his own party to campaign on these issues. But, at the end of the day, he can run as many memes as he wants on Facebook, but he’s not doing things for the Australian people – he’s thinking about himself, fundamentally.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Maybe Labor should have campaigned against Clive Palmer.

TONY JONES

Can I just ask Alan... Alan, sorry, you’re listening and shaking your head silently. Your view on Clive Palmer? And I have to say, can you take on board the notion that he effectively owes $70 million to the Australian taxpayer, and so we may have, in fact, funded that $60 million?

ALAN JONES

Well, look, this is not... I mean, I could argue that position whether or not that’s correct, but that’s not actually germane to what the point is being made here, although it is a valid question. Um, Clive... The business about Clive Palmer spending money, apart from the fact that it’s his own business, and, of course, Jim says, “Oh, well, he spent all his money on death duties.” He didn’t do that at all. His aim, and he stated it publicly and equivocally, was to prevent Bill Shorten becoming prime minister. He’s entitled to do that.

And I would have thought, if there’s businesspeople at the table here, they might choose to answer the question as to how on Earth business would have managed the burden of tax that was being foisted upon them should Labor win. And Palmer spoke in an educative way in those short things, telling people what the risks were, and he made it quite clear. And he said that today – “Well, I’ve stopped all these taxes being levied on corporations and individuals.” And we outlined what those taxes are here tonight, and we’ve seen the result in the electorate. Now, Andrew Leigh... If you want to talk about death duties, Jim, Andrew Leigh’s a professor of economics at ANU, he’s your Shadow Assistant Treasurer. Rightly or wrongly, he did say, only about six years ago, that he believed there should an inheritance tax.

ALICE WORKMAN

It was 2006.

ALAN JONES

He made the comment. “There should be an inheritance tax.” Julian Burnside was only recently endorsed as a Greens candidate. The Greens are in partnership with Labor...

JIM CHALMERS

Ugh.

ALAN JONES

...give all their preferences to Labor. And what would Labor...Greens expect from Labor if they supported them? Well, Julian Burnside said there should be death duties. Now, there was ambiguity about all of this...

JIM CHALMERS

You’re drawing a very long bow, Alan.

ALAN JONES

There was ambiguity about all this, and Bill Shorten never once...

JIM CHALMERS

I mean, this is the kind of absurdity that dominated the election campaign.

ALAN JONES

...Bill Shorten never once addressed the issue of death duties, never once.

JIM CHALMERS

That’s...that’s a total lie.

ALICE WORKMAN

That’s not true.

JIM CHALMERS

From beginning to end, that’s a lie. From beginning to end, a lie.

ALAN JONES

You find for me where Bill Shorten said anything about death duties.

JIM CHALMERS

I’m happy to do that.

ALAN JONES

Show me. OK.

JIM CHALMERS

We had to repeatedly say that it wasn’t out policy.

TONY JONES

He did say on numerous occasions they weren’t doing it.

JIM CHALMERS

Many times.

TONY JONES

If that’s what you mean.

MING LONG

Can I just...? One more thing...

JIM CHALMERS

This is what we’re up against.

MING LONG

...to your question. I would love to see government look at misleading and deceptive advertising in political campaigns, please. Because we deserve better! (LAUGHS)

TONY JONES

Legislation?

MING LONG

Would love it. Please.

TONY JONES

Alright, you’re watching the first Q&A since the election. The next question turns to the other side of this election. It’s from James Jeffery. James.

JAMES JEFFERY

Um, just today, social media picked up some similarities between ScoMo and Bob Hawke having a beer while watching the footy. Like Bob Hawke, could ScoMo be the next PM of the people?

TONY JONES

Alice, we’ll start with you.

ALICE WORKMAN

Well, that’s what Scott Morrison talked about when he talked about ‘quiet Australians’ in his, uh, election victory speech, and that’s what he has always set out to do. I think that it might be hard for some people who remember him as Immigration Minister or Social Services Minister or even as Treasurer, where I remember once he told me that he didn’t believe that treasurers should be liked because they have to make hard decisions. And that’s a tough transition into the prime minister, where, you know, it is a popularity contest, even though we’re not America, and we don’t directly vote for prime minister. It is a popularity contest ‘cause you’re selling your policies and you’re selling your party.

And I think that... I’m a true believer in that kicking a football and having a beer is super relatable and people love it. When Scott Morrison went to Tasmania, and he met the man with the best mullet in this country, that guy said to...he was interviewed afterwards and he said, “He’s just a normal bloke. He’s relatable. He’s got a football team. We had a chat about it. We went around the back, he kicked the AFL. It was all great.” And getting your hands dirty on the campaign is a tried and true method of getting people to like you. And that’s what Scott Morrison fundamentally did.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

And Scott also loved the campaign. I mean, he looked like he was really enjoying it. He liked getting out and talking to the people.

ALICE WORKMAN

Hmm.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

He didn’t look harassed and harried or grumpy. I have to say, I thought Bill looked grumpy for most of the campaign. It was like he was basically saying, “Why do I have to go through this campaign when obviously I’m going to be the prime minister?” I mean, Labor were so overconfident for so long.

TONY JONES

OK, we’re done talk...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I mean, when Bill eats a sausage...

TONY JONES

Christopher...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

...Bill eats his sausage from the middle! I mean, who does...?

TONY JONES

The campaign’s over. We’re not talking about Labor anymore. We’ve moved on to Scott Morrison.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Well, I’m retired.

TONY JONES

Well, here’s an obvious question for you. In retrospect...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I think ScoMo’s got the chance to be a long-term prime minister.

TONY JONES

In retrospect, then, do you think it was the right thing for the Liberal Party room to overthrow Malcolm Turnbull?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Well, both Scott Morrison and I supported Malcolm Turnbull right through to the end, and, in fact, tried to avoid any leadership change. And I think Malcolm would have won.

TONY JONES

There are different views, by the way...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Well, of course there’s different views – it’s a democracy.

TONY JONES

...on what Scott Morrison did in the lead-up to...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

No, there isn’t. I was there for every moment of it. And I can tell you he was absolutely and 100% supportive of Malcolm Turnbull right through to the last moment. So there’s a whole lot of mythology that’s been created, but it’s actually not true.

TONY JONES

OK, so, given how well he campaigned, did it turn out to be the right thing? Would Malcolm Turnbull have done as well in this campaign?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Well, I think what Scott did was take us from a position of being 54-46 after the leadership changed, to winning the election on Saturday, probably about 51.5 to 48.5. Now, that is an amazing achievement. Malcolm was only 49-51 at the time, if you remember. So I think Malcolm would have won the election as well, but we’ll never know that. There will be people who would say that he wouldn’t, there will be people who would say that he would, because it is completely unprovable. But I don’t think that we should have changed the leader. I still believe that, and I’m sure Scott would say the same thing. But, you know, he’s made the best of a very bad situation. We gave ourselves quite a handicap last August by having this disunity. And we’ve been forgiven by the Australian public. I think, counterintuitively, a lot of people thought, “Why would we add to the chaos by changing the prime minister again?”

TONY JONES

Hmm. Did you make a mistake leaving? I mean...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

No, I’m very happy. I’ve been there 26 years. How long can a good thing keep going for?

TONY JONES

Fair enough. Alan Jones...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I’m like Winx.

TONY JONES

...the question about Scott Morrison and his place in political history, but also him as a campaigner.

ALAN JONES

Well, I think Scott would be embarrassed if his name was mentioned in the same sentence as Bob Hawke. Bob Hawke was a unique individual who made a phenomenal contribution to this country and he had just a wonderful rapport. Scott would aim, I guess, at the end of the day, to have that kind of record, but Scott would say, “Look, I’m only a starter here. Bob Hawke has history on his side.” Bob Hawke, I used to say, won four elections at the racecourse. And I’ve seen him walk into the racecourse and a bloke would shout out, “Bob, you got us a tip?” And Bob would have his form guide in his pocket and he’d read a name out and they thought that was fantastic.

And I remember on one occasion – in fact, it was on my program – that he changed the whole business about higher education and introduced that HECS payment. And he asked to come on, and he was going to justify it. And his justification was that, “Well, in an ideal world, it’s perfect that we have free university education,” but he said, “There’s a whole lot of people out there who vote for me who will never get inside a university gate and they’re contributing to people who do, and whose people...whose educations are going to help them gain more in life, and I don’t think they actually should be paying as much as they’re paying.” So he really had an understanding, Bob Hawke, of what motivated people, and he had a wonderful capacity to seek rapport with all sections – the business community, the sporting community, and the average Joe out there who was struggling.

Scott Morrison, I think is down that track. He campaigns very, very well. You’re right, Christopher – he’s energetic, he’s enthusiastic, he genuinely loves it and wants to do it. But he would say, “I’ve got the job in front of me if I’m going to be mentioned in the same breath as Bob Hawke.”

TONY JONES

Jim Chalmers, the other part of that question is, he did campaign very well. He did have a broad appeal that’s been proven by the results. The comparison obviously that’s been made is with Bill Shorten. Was he the wrong person for Labor to go to this election with as leader?

JIM CHALMERS

Look, Bill Shorten did a range of pretty remarkable things. After 2013, when we hit the fence in the 2013 election, he brought the party together. He genuinely united the party, for six years. He deserves credit for that. He won – objectively, not my opinion, but, you know... In the wash-up of the three debates, he won the three debates. He withstood some pretty horrific personal attacks. He did all of those sorts of things. And he fell short, right? And I don’t think it’s fair to blame Bill or any other one person for the outcome that we got on Saturday.

The two points of common ground that I wanted to strike with Alan and also with Chris in response to James’ question, but also Kylie’s and Angus’s...Australians hate two things – sore losers and bad winners, right? They don’t want us to walk around the country for three years whingeing about the outcome or the result. They don’t want the Liberal Party to, you know, claim that they’re going to win the next election because they won the last one. They hate bad winners, they hate bad losers. And you alluded to that, Chris, before. I think you’re right in a sense that we can’t be bad losers in the Labor Party.

The other thing I agree with from Alan is that it’s possible to think that Scott Morrison ran an effective campaign. It was ultimately a successful campaign, but also to conclude that, even in his wildest dreams, he is not a cracker compared to Bob Hawke. I mean, Bob Hawke was one of a kind. And on Thursday night, we lost one of the greatest Australians ever. And I think one of the heartening things – Tony Abbott aside, John Howard aside – is that almost the entire country came together at that moment and recognised that we had lost something extraordinary.

TONY JONES

Ming Long?

MING LONG

Um... Which question am I answering?

TONY JONES

Well, there’s really...

MING LONG

Am I answering Bob Hawke, am I answering...?

TONY JONES

Well, the questioner wound in Bob Hawke’s appeal to ordinary Australians in a question about Scott Morrison’s campaign.

MING LONG

Yeah, I think... I mean, I did also observe...there was the...the...beer drinking – like, constant beer drinking going on. I don’t drink, so I didn’t relate to it as well. But, you know, you have to be a man of the people. You have to be a person that, I think, people relate to.

TONY JONES

Or a woman of the people.

ALAN JONES

A woman of the people?

MING LONG

A woman of the people. Please. At one point during my lifetime. The interesting comparison, though, with Bob... And, you know, I was an economics student in the Hawke-Keating eras – that was an amazing time of reform that I honestly have not seen again. And that’s really unfortunate. But I do think that Scott Morrison has an opportunity, because he doesn’t have any former prime ministers in the parliament. And if you really wanted to make sure that he got in and neutralised the opposition in the next election, if he actually dealt substantially with climate change, he would potentially become legendary in his own party. So there is an opportunity for him to be in for more than, you know, one term, more than two terms, potentially, if he actually substantially dealt with that particular issue, ‘cause I do think that...

TONY JONES

Ming, we’ve got a question on that. So I’m going to go to questions on climate change now. The first one is from Ashleigh Condon.

ASHLEIGH CONDON

The effects of climate change will most adversely affect the Australian youth. With recent protests and political involvement of school-age children juxtaposed to the disinterest of many Australian voters, does the panel think the voting age should be lowered, or perhaps should an opt-in voting arrangement for teenagers be considered?

TONY JONES

Alice, I’ll start with you, representative of young Australia.

ALICE WORKMAN

I’m actually not that young, Tony.

TONY JONES

Compared to the rest of the panel.

ALICE WORKMAN

This is an interesting question, because the Greens have a policy that they think the voting age should be lowered to 16. When Sam Dastyari was in the Senate, he also floated the idea. Interesting to note that Labor, if elected, were going to reappoint someone as youth minister. We haven’t had a youth minister in a very long time. You know, we have an ageing minister but not a youth minister, which is a, you know, decision the Coalition has obviously come to.

I think it’s an interesting prospect, an opt-in system, but the difficulty that I have with it is that compulsory voting is one of the things that I think makes Australian democracy great. I think that a lot of 16-year-olds, you could possibly make the argument, aren’t mature enough, they aren’t educated enough, they’re not there yet. 18 is the legal age in Australia, and I think that we’ve set it there for a reason. But one of the things I am buoyed by is that after the postal survey that we had to have, so many young people were enrolled. We had a record number of young enrollers. And I think people born in the year 2000 voted on Saturday, which is really exciting. So...

And politics will change. I know that I was talking to some younger voters for the first time, explaining politics to them and where the parties sit, and, you know, they didn’t agree with a lot of policies from both the major parties. They thought that they weren’t progressive enough. They wanted immediate change. You know, it’ll take a while. And with a new generation potentially coming up in Labor, we will see things change and, hopefully, we will see more women and we will see a climate policy from the Coalition, possibly.

TONY JONES

Alice, I’m going to just interrupt you, because we’ve got a web question that came in. It’s from Kaity Graham in Launceston, Tasmania. “What do you think happened to the higher number of younger voters because of the same-sex marriage vote that was predicted to help Labor and the Greens?” And actually, I’ll throw that to Jim. Did you get your demographics wrong? Because, obviously, you pitched a lot of your campaigning to younger voters. Obviously, the older voters seemed to have had a sway.

JIM CHALMERS

I don’t know that there’s a way to determine, to break out the vote on the weekend by age groups. And I think if there’s one thing that we’ve learned from the campaign just gone is that the opinion polling and exit polling and all of that is becoming less and less accurate. I’m proud of the way that we appealed to younger people in this country. And I think... You know, actually, this question about climate change – I mean, we need to be careful that the history of what happened two days ago is not completely rewritten when it comes to climate change. The Australian people overwhelmingly want to deal with it. And they understand that renewable energy is cheaper, can be good for jobs...

TONY JONES

When you say overwhelmingly, are you leaving North Queensland out of that?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, clearly...I mean, clearly, in Central Queensland and in North Queensland, we had a problem. And that’s reflected in the results. And somebody else, I think Alice, mentioned what happened in the electorate of Flynn. We had an outstanding candidate there, Zac Beers, who is a great guy. And he copped a big swing against him and, you know, we would be dishonest if we tried to claim that coal didn’t play a part in that. But nationally, overwhelmingly, people want us to deal with climate change. Renewable energy needs to be a bigger component of the mix going forward. That doesn’t mean that coal doesn’t play an important role. Coal is essential to the economies of Central and North Queensland – I know that, as a Queenslander.

TONY JONES

Do you think the importance of coal just got greater as far as the Labor Party is concerned, after this election?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, I don’t think that the Adani mine will be an issue in the 2022 election. I do think that it played a role in the swings that we got in Capricornia and Flynn and Dawson and Herbert in the election just gone. But it would be mistake for us to fight the next election on the basis of the last one.

TONY JONES

Yeah, but are you essentially saying there’s a future for coal?

JIM CHALMERS

We’ve always said that. I mean, we have always said...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

(LAUGHS)

JIM CHALMERS

...that coal will be an important part of the economy for the foreseeable future. We have always said that.

TONY JONES

There didn’t seem to be a big campaign message about that.

JIM CHALMERS

I have said that repeatedly.

TONY JONES

Alright.

JIM CHALMERS

Repeatedly.

ALICE WORKMAN

But didn’t you also... Wasn’t one of your transition policy...didn’t it also say that you would look at legislating in your first term, redundancies...pull redundancies for people, to transition them out of the coalmining industry? Don’t you think that was one of the big reasons why in Queensland people turned away from your policies?

JIM CHALMERS

Not necessarily. I think coal did play a part. I’ve already conceded that. But what you’re talking about is we’ve got all of these 45- and 50-year-old power assets which are closing down...

ALICE WORKMAN

Mm.

JIM CHALMERS

...and what we are saying to the workers in those energy assets, “If they’re closing down, we won’t leave you on your own.” Our message is a pro-worker message in those communities. We’ve seen it in the Latrobe Valley and elsewhere.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

That was lost on the Hunter Valley.

JIM CHALMERS

We need to... We can’t say to people that you’re on your own if your source of employment closes down.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

Joel Fitzgibbon... (SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)

JIM CHALMERS

And so, yes, we had an issue...yes, we had an issue in Central and North Queensland. But it’s not because we had a policy for people who lose their job as a result of energy assets closing down.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I think one of the dangers in the Labor Party’s campaign was it was trying to set people against each other – that, somehow, retirees were taking money that should be going to young people. That...you know, that the coal industry was hurting the environment, which made all the people in the coal industry think they were doing something bad by being in the industry which drives our energy. There was a real class warfare angle to Labor’s campaign, and I think Australians, ‘cause we’re a great egalitarian society, rejected it.

ALICE WORKMAN

And I think it’s also about affluence, because one of the...

TONY JONES

I’m just going to interrupt you, ‘cause we’ve got... We’ll come back to that, Alice, because we have time for one last question. It’s on the same subject, actually – it’s just a different perspective. It’s from Ross Hughes.

ROSS HUGHES

Tony, action on climate change was identified as an important issue for this election. Yet, voters returned a government that’s previously been paralysed by climate-change deniers. Is there a chance that this is a policy area that in the future Scott Morrison will be able to exercise that authority that he has as a hero of bringing the Coalition back to government... will he be able to exercise his influence in that policy area to bring about changes, or will the climate-change deniers feel empowered to prosecute their agenda again?

TONY JONES

Christopher Pyne, we’ll start with you.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I think Scott Morrison has just won the greatest amount of authority of any leader of the Liberal Party since John Howard. The reality is he’s won an election which was supposed to be the unwinnable election. So the authority that he carries means that he will be able to determine a lot of the policy direction in a way that the past few leaders have not had that unity. In terms of climate, you know, what we’ve tried to do in the last six years is do practical things that meet our targets. Our Paris agreement targets, the Kyoto ones, of course, right back in history the last few years, more than a decade, and we’ve done that, and done it because we’ve been putting practical policies into place. Now, we’re not part of that Green left agenda that says we have to close down coal and everyone has to have renewable or solar. But we’re not against renewable or against solar. We’re in favour...

TONY JONES

Christopher...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

...we’re agnostic about that.

TONY JONES

...we’re sort of running out of time. What message will Scott Morrison take from the Liberal seats, sometimes blue-ribbon Liberal seats, where there was a big backlash around the issue of climate change? Josh Frydenberg’s seat...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I’m glad you asked that question...

TONY JONES

…Wentworth, and many others.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

…because that’s another one of the mythologies. See, I think Labor and their friends have convinced themselves of a whole lot of myths. Now, the so-called affluent small-l liberal electorates, of which I have represented one for the last 26 years, in the western suburbs of Perth, the eastern suburbs of Adelaide the eastern suburbs of Melbourne, the North Shore of Sydney and the eastern suburbs in Sydney, the western suburbs of Brisbane, are almost all held by the Coalition except, now, Warringah. So this so-called idea that affluent small-l liberal voters have turned against the Coalition, it’s not borne out by the facts, because Warringah was lost not because of climate change but because there was a particular anger with Tony Abbott, about the last few years.

TONY JONES

So, no message to Scott Morrison or the Liberal government about climate change, as far as you’re concerned?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

I don’t think the election was fought around climate change – it was fought around the economy.

TONY JONES

OK. Alice?

ALICE WORKMAN

The first step would be finding an environment minister that can give an interview and front up and answer questions. Melissa Price was MIA the whole election. Let’s be honest, she’s been MIA her whole time in the ministry. I’ve been talking to some people in the ministerial wing about whether she will be dumped completely or whether she will be given an outer-ministry portfolio. I don’t think Scott Morrison has decided yet. But that would be one step forward. But there is a fundamental reckoning that needs to happen within the factions in the Coalition about what to do. I know that some of the independents in the lower house have said they’re interested in bringing back the NEG. I don’t know whether that will happen. But depending on what will happen in the lower house and how many seats the Coalition end up winning, the independents have all come in on a policy, except for Bob Katter. They’ve all come in and said, “Action on climate change is what we want.” So they could be the people that push the government into doing it. And...

TONY JONES

It would have to be another miracle, because it looks like he’s headed for a majority government and he won’t have to listen to them.

ALICE WORKMAN

But the Greens also have nine seats in the Senate, and no-one will have a majority in the Senate. So they will have to work with someone to get any legislation passed.

TONY JONES

Alan Jones?

ALAN JONES

Oh, dear.

TONY JONES

I know it’s problematic for you if you don’t believe in climate change.

ALAN JONES

Well, look, this is predicated on the argument that the whole nation out there thinks climate change is the most important issue – they don’t. If they did, then... Kerryn Phelps has just lost the seat at Wentworth. Now, climate change was the biggest issue there. And when I... What is climate change? I mean, I think the question the young lady asked over here is very valid. Young people are highly intelligent. They have many platforms from which they can derive their information and their knowledge. But I wonder whether they’re being told – which they are entitled to – all the facts in relation to this. When I asked...

ALICE WORKMAN

Oh, my God.

ALAN JONES

Well, just a moment, Alice. You’ve been speaking for most of the night. When I...when I...when I asked Tanya Plibersek...

TONY JONES

We’ll fact check that one for you.

ALICE WORKMAN

Can I?

ALAN JONES

When I asked Tanya Plibersek, the deputy leader of the Labor Party and the potential deputy prime minister, was carbon dioxide the big issue in relation to climate change, and she said, “Yes,” I then said, “Well, that being the case, what percentage of the atmosphere is made up of carbon dioxide?” And she said, “I don’t know.” And I said, “Hang on – you don’t know what percentage of the atmosphere is carbon dioxide, and yet you’re prepared to stand the economy on its head to address a problem the detail of which you don’t know?” So, when I then explained that the percentage of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere – Alice, is how much? Alice, how much of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere?

ALICE WORKMAN

To answer the question, Scott Morrison has said...

ALAN JONES

Alison, how much...?

ALICE WORKMAN

...he believes in climate change...

ALAN JONES

Alice, how much...?

ALICE WORKMAN

...and that he wants to do something about it.

ALAN JONES

Alice, how much carbon dioxide is the problem? How much carbon dioxide is there in the atmosphere?

ALICE WORKMAN

I’m not a scientist. I don’t know.

MING LONG

Too much.

ALAN JONES

Well, hang on, if you’re going to argue the case, you ought to know – it’s 0.04%. Of that 0.04%, human beings around the world create 3%. Of that 3%, Australia creates 1.3%. So for the 1.3% of 3% of 0.04%, we then decide to have a national economic suicide note.

TONY JONES

Alan. Alan. Alan. Alan. I’m happy for you to have made that point, which you’ve made many times on radio, but it has to be answered by others, and particularly by scientists in the long term. Let’s got to...

ALAN JONES

Well, no, it’s maths, not science.

TONY JONES

...Ming Long. Go ahead.

ALAN JONES

That’s maths, not science.

MING LONG

To answer your question about youth, in Queensland youth unemployment is 25%. So I can understand why they would consider their own survival above climate. But I think if we actually dealt with the employment issue with Queensland, they would also care about climate. Business cares about climate. We heard the Reserve Bank has talked about it, the World Bank has talked about it. We look at... Capital flows to fossil fuels around the world is in decline. It’s in long-term decline. Pension funds around the world. The second largest global pension fund around the world has announced they are going to divest of fossil fuels. Why? Because we know...we know that, eventually, at some point in time – and we need to transition, and make sure it’s sensible, and make sure that people have jobs in that process – that it will become a stranded asset, as in, it be worth nothing. Because renewable energy and its reliability and what it can do to de-risk our energy systems and reduce the cost of energy for business and for the entire community, it’s already lower than coal. I don’t think it is financially viable, which is why we see banks not funding coal-fired power stations, we’re seeing insurance companies coming out to say they will no longer, at a future point in time, actually insure that part of the community. So it is in transition. What we do not have is a plan. We do not have leadership on this. Because it is going to happen whether we like it or not. The other issue around the global...

TONY JONES

Ming, we’re running out of time. Can I just ask you one quick question?

MING LONG

Yes.

TONY JONES

From where does business get its advice on the danger of climate change?

MING LONG

We listen to the scientists. We do the analysis. We do...we do an analysis. Not just because one party says one thing or another. We look at it from a risk perspective and we look at it from a return perspective. The return from fossil fuels is going to decline long-term. This is not a viable investment option for our country.

TONY JONES

OK, Jim Chalmers, final word to you. If you want to make it an election pitch for the Labor leadership, that’s just fine.

JIM CHALMERS

How about I answer Ross’s question instead?

TONY JONES

Go ahead.

JIM CHALMERS

The policy, or so-called policy, that Chris outlined in response to your question, Ross, has been a recipe for pollution going up and electricity prices going up. And Scott Morrison conceded during the campaign that pollution is actually going up. There’s an appetite around Australia for us to do something about climate change. There’s an appetite for renewable energy, because it’s cheaper and it’s better, long-term, for the economy. Now, Alice referred to the fact... Or the question was about the authority that Scott Morrison might spend on this. I don’t think... if he does have authority from this election win on Saturday, I don’t think he will spend it here, because there are such a diverse range of views in the party. The party is still hopelessly split on climate policy and on energy policy. Now, Scott Morrison during the debate said that Price would be the environment minister if they were re-elected. And so we’re going to have this continuation of this farcical situation when it comes to environmental policy, and that’s problematic, as well, for getting real action on climate change. In her defence, she’s not as tarnished as Angus Taylor is. But she is obviously not the person to carry this argument. So, I’m not hopeful that we will start to turn around this challenge that we’ve got in our economy when it comes to pollution and energy prices.

TONY JONES

Quick final question, and it does relate to who will end up being Labor leader. Will anyone in the ranks of the Labor leadership – potential Labor leaders, I should say – will any of them change the target that has now been set?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, I don’t speak for anyone else who might put their hand up. But I do know that in our party we have a view that we need to deal with climate change, we need to deal with pollution, we need to deal with rising energy costs. We want to see proper investment in renewables. And as Ming rightly points out, that’s not just our view, it’s the view of the scientists. It’s the view of the economists. It’s the view of the financial institution. It is the view of the Reserve Bank. We need to do something about this.

TONY JONES

Is the target... In your opinion, is the target untouchable?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, I’m not going to announce the target tonight.

TONY JONES

There’s already a target.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE

It’s 45%.

JIM CHALMERS

We took a target to the election. And obviously...

TONY JONES

So that could change?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, everything is up for grabs, Tony. I mean, when you...

TONY JONES

Including something as fundamental as that?

JIM CHALMERS

When you lose an election...

ALAN JONES

Weren’t going to turn the lights on for Q&A.

JIM CHALMERS

Let me answer Tony’s question, Alan, before you get too excited. All of our policies, obviously, 48 hours after an election, we don’t lock them down for three years down the track. I’ve said that repeatedly.

TONY JONES

OK, that’s all we have time for tonight. Please thank our panel – Alan Jones, Alice Workman, Christopher Pyne, Jim Chalmers and Ming Long.

Thank you very much. You can continue the discussion with Q&A Extra on NewsRadio and Facebook Live, where Tracey Holmes is joined by Simon Cowan of the Centre for Independent Studies.

Next week on Q&A’s panel France’s best-known public intellectual, Bernard-Henri Levy, one of Australia leading thinkers, Marcia Langton, people’s panellist, anti-racism campaigner and former Greens candidate Rachael Jacobs, Shadow Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus and a yet-to-be-confirmed member of the new Morrison governm